rhettsmith.com

11. You will waste your cancer if you act like a total a** and pretend like you're the only one who "gets" it and that everyone else who has ever suffered with it just wasn't smart enough to decode the "secret message" God was trying to tell them.

I'm right there with you Rhett - what an idiotic thing to say. Can you learn something from suffering? You bet. Is that the way to teach someone who IS suffering? No way! ugghh!

Wow. One more reason that John is at the top of my list of the three most dangerous deterministic, pessimistic theologians alive and inflicting damage today. Very sad.

I do think he has an okay point but the funny thing about sharp objects is that you have to be careful when and where you go waving them around. You never know who you will hurt.

I'm so glad you posted this. I read the same thing and wondered if I was the only person nauseated by it. I kept looking for something like "You will waste you cancer if you do not embrace your children more" or something, say... more humane and compassionate?

How sad.

rhett,

First let me say I am sorry for your loss of the women of your family. I pray God is comforting you and teaching you through your hard experiences.

I am someone you would consider in the Piper fan camp. A couple of comments:
1. Consider the fact that John wrote this the day before he went in for his own cancer surgery. I think it likely he was preaching to himself all the while he was writing for others. I doubt that at this time he has no concept of pastoral care for those with cancer or that he feels very non-chalant about suffering with cancer.
2. One of John's goals in preaching is trying to help people prepare to suffer or die well. This for him includes learning the lessons we need to have from God before our time of trial comes. We will all experience them sooner or later. It is much harder to learn how to act and feel toward God in suffering when we are in the midst of it. I can see how John's words could be harder to listen to from someone in the midst of suffering compared to someone not in a time of suffering.
3. I believe pastor Piper's bedside manner is likely better in practice than you may think. He is not oblivious to real pain or struggles or the fight of faith. I have heard him answer questions such as "what would you say to someone who is experiencing xyz..." and he has explicitly said things that show he is sensitive to his audience. Our speech must take our audience into consideration and I believe John is not perfect, but pretty good about doing that -- certainly much better than I would be. Consider that the internet audience is extremely broad and that it is difficult to fit everyone's life situation tightly.
4. Last, do you disagree with his points or is it more with the tone with which you perceive them to come across?
Thank you for listening.

David

rhett,

I forgot to add (in my previous comment) a link to a sermon Piper preached on cancer way back in 1980:
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/sermons/80/081780.html

I definitely see your point. I also see his. And to answer a question posed in an earlier comment: I think it's more his tone that rubs me the wrong way. The actual words do tend to focus more on what one may deem "Law," but I think Piper's intent is to comfort the person who suffers from cancer. His intent seems to be trying to change the way one thinks from self-pity and defeat to a life with a purpose.

I too have lost family to cancer, and have family members who are cancer survivors. It is scary when someone close to you has cancer.
But that's why I appreciated John Piper's writing on this so much.
I was encouraged by it. I'm glad he wrote & shared that.

Thanks for all the comments. I obviously am at odds with some of the comments, as I hold a very different view of God in the midst of suffering. But nonetheless, I appreciate your thoughts on my own losses due to cancer.

Some of you found John's comments life-giving, where as I did not, but that is okay in my opinion for us to disagree at that point.

I hope we can continue to dialogue...

Every event in the life of a believer is an opportunity to glorify God. The more extreme the circumstances, the greater the glory, and the greater shame if the chance is missed (wasted). Piper is saying that there is sense meaning and and purpose in our suffering. HThis is comfort, maturity love and wisdom. We have fellowshop with Christs in our suffering.

Rhett,

I find your approach to Piper's statements to be highly manipulative of his statements. You are supposing and imposing a negative, unloving, pastoral tone that I do not believe exists. Full discolosure. I too have lost a family member to cancer.

If you know Piper's writings/teachings at all, then you know that his main stance is that God's glory is all that matters. As he states in multiple books, "God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him." In the article above, Piper is challenging us all to look at our lives, especially in the times of suffering, and see what it is that God is teaching us. I don't think that anyone can argue that we, as Americans, produce a lot of waste. Not trash, but waste. I think his challenge to not waste our times of suffering is very encouraging.

God is not concerned with our happiness; He is concerned with our sanctification, period. If it takes allowing a desiese to ruin our earthly bodies to further glorify Himself through our sanctification.....who am I, but a vapor in the air, to stand in His way?

It is obvious from the comments above that there is a divide theologically. There are those who obviously love Piper and want to make sure that his teaching really points to the glory of God. And then there are those people that I relate to much more, and who seem to really allow God to be God, rather than trying to explain things on behalf of God.

What seems evident to me in this situation is that Piper has really brought himself to the forefront, and brought glory upon his handling of the situation, rather than God getting the glory.

How much glory can God receive when one is able to explain His every action and thought. Piper seems to want to explain the mind of God and how God works in the midst of suffering, and that seems to truly lack any humility.

Humility is lacking in the attitude that says I know better than God what suffering is and should be in my life or the lives of others. Wrongheadedness is in the attitude that God would allow purposeless, senseless suffering. Joy is knowing that his plan for us is perfect and loving. Piper doesn't say anything about God that God hasn't told us himself. Minister to the suffering and their suffering has meaning. Be ministered to and your suffering has meaning. Love one another and don't waste your suffering that would be truly tragic.

Dear Mr.Smith,

When I first read Pastor Piper's words I thought, wow, he is right on target. Then I linked to yours and read your ponderings and wondered how the two of us (both hard thinking Texans (!), could think so vastly different.
And as I pondered I realized you watched things done to other people that were dear to you. The reckoning this brought was so very hard because when we stand on the periphery and see pain happening to those we love we break with the pain.
Pastor Piper's writings were his personal perspectives and they are mine. I have not had cancer but in 1991 a logging truck ran me off the highway here in deep East Texas and left me handicapped and facing, over these near 15 years with some 22 surgeries, repeatedly facing chronic pain.
This came to me at age 40....and don't they say, life begins at 40?? Well, mine did. THrough the major trauma, pain so blinding that I thought I could never praise again, I walked holding God's hand and learned lessons in through the loving pruning of a Holy God, who loves me through the event.
As I speak to groups I always am reminded of this painful thing....that God had to at least give permission for the event to be in my life...OR IT WOULDN'T be there. And that permission includes hard truths of God's faithfulness only found in the fires of affliction. What a great love I have found from all this.

I am studying to be a Chaplain. I probably wouldn't walk into anyone about to go through an event such as the dear Pastor describes and hand them his ready list of expectations. Just because I identified with them it is clear many others wouldn't. But he was writing hard truths learned with the age of walking over years of time and learned lessons of truth.
When you are in your 50's you will have seen God's hands in ways you haven't seen yet and will say....no truer words were ever written.
Sent with regard from just a simple rancher in East Texas and blessings abounding in your life, as you walk with a mighty God, giving His love to many who have never seen it.

Blessings...Beverly Gunn
East Texas rancher

I discovered the Piper post via Hugh Hewitt. I'm a Canadian ex-Anglican, now Catholic, who had never heard of Mr. Piper. My dad died of cancer nearly eight years ago and my twin and I were his main care givers through the nine months we knew he--and we--were walking "through the valley of the shadow of death". Those nine months preparing for our father's death were full of pain and suffering for all of us, but also of amazing light and grace. I'd say that the three of us were never closer. Nor have I ever felt more in need of, and more thankful and closer to God. In that context, I read the remarks of Mr. Piper, himself a cancer patient. I found them to be gracious and wise. They were certainly not saccharine, but they contained much compassion, as well as courage and truth. I was not the least bit offended. I'm sad that some people were. Thank you, Mr. Piper, and bless you. I will remember you in my prayers.

I am a part of the congregation of Bethlehem Baptist Church where John Piper preaches most Sundays. I have been attending there for about 6 years, and I have listened to a majority of his sermons (on audio tape) from the past 25 years and read practically all of his books.

I decided to post because of all the "Piper seems to..." type statements being posted here.

Having a much fuller experience of John than probably most everyone here, I want to at least share a few observations from my perspective:

1. John is one of the most vigilant people I've ever observed when it comes to fighting against pride. I say fighting because it is so easy to be prideful whenever someone admires you. This is not about him as some kind of superstar. It is about his God. In fact, if you listen to the sermon where he announced his diagnosis of prostate cancer to the congregation, you will see for yourself what I am talking about.

2. John makes virtually all of his writings and recordings available for free - by either posting them on the internet (very expensive for bandwith) or by giving away resources. He is not in it for the money. In fact, he (purposefully) lives in one of the highest crime (read: poorest) areas of Minneapolis. The things of this world are not his treasure.

3. John has been clear and consistent when it comes to the balance between teaching the Bible passages about God's hand in suffering and simply weeping with those who weep. A good example of this is John's suggestions during the aftermath of September 11th. I suggest that the naysayers here might read this - http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/suffering/how_minister.html

Let's not make any assumptions about his bedside manner. John dealt with an average of over one death per week during his early years at Bethlehem (it was a very old congregation at the time) and he says this had a profound effect on him and the way he communicates about suffering.

4. It seems to me that in making his writings available to those who would want them, he has made this article regarding his dealing with cancer available as well. He is not even close to forcing it on anyone. In fact, Desiring God ministries only sends the e-mails to those who have asked to be on the list.

5. This article, like much of John's teaching, is, in part, meant to prepare me in the event where my cancer comes. I am sure that it is not meant to be callously handed to everyone at your nearest cancer ward. He is not at all like Job's friends as someone suggested above. In fact, his article in question quotes the inspired writer of Job rather than Job's friends.

And one last observation having to do with the original posting here. I wonder why Rhett Smith didn't post the entire article, but rather took the ten sentences without the explanation under each one. The article is only one page long, so it wouldn't have been much trouble to read. Desiring God allows reprinting of these articles, so I don't think there would be any issue with copyright violation. And, finally, it would have allowed for a better understanding of what John meant - in his own words - by each of his ten statements.

I leave it to Rhett Smith to decide whether to post the full article on this webpage, but if you as a reader want to read the whole thing for yourself or get a better understanding of what John Piper has taught in the past, I encourage you to visit www.desiringgod.org and see for yourself.

This is not about John Piper. It is about the God that he sees in the Bible. I suggest that you may not be seeing the same things of God or you may be imbalanced in your view of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob...

I've had cancer (stage 3 colon cancer), surgery, chemo at the ripe old age of 40. My mom is being zapped with Erbitux now for recurrent stage 4 colon cancer. A couple months ago I attended a funeral of a 12 year old boy who died of a very rare cancer. I've seen and felt and know the pain. And I found Piper's words comforting and profound. God heals and he strikes down. He gives and takes away. I don't understand why. God is frustratingly silent at times. Then he bathes the sky with glorious color. Blessed be the name of the Lord. That's all we can say.

Rhett- First let me say that I am VERY sorry for your losses. My mother has suffered from cancer as well as the after effects of cancer for some time. To be honest, her condition is EXTREMELY unusual in that the after effects and treatment have been as much a source of pain and suffering as the cancer. Another disclosure. I am familiar with Piper, but I do not consider myself either pro or anti Piper. I feel moved to write as it seems that most of your posts are anti to one degree or another. What seems largely lost, except to one defender of Piper, is that he is writing this in the wake of HIS OWN experience. Like Piper or not, I have a hard time faulting him for the comments in light of that. He walks it like he talks it. He is speaking to himself first, albeit out loud. Last disclosure: Not withstanding Piper, I also have a high view of God's control. I had never before visited his website prior to reading yours. In looking at his comments, I fail to see where he, in Samuel's words "seems to want to explain the mind of God and how God works in the midst of suffering, and that seems to truly lack any humility." Piper's comments were not explaining God's rationale behind this type of suffering beyond saying that God is in control. That is a statement of fact to Piper. Not an in-depth explaination of the why. The precise why is, indeed unknowable. That said, if you take the long view, I am certainly glad that God is in control. Again, I want to reinforce my profound sympathies for the suffering of your family. Please do not think that my comments do not come without some amount of sympathy and empathy for your postition. I have been there, too :-)

God Bless

I don't 'love' Mr Piper in that I have never heard of him before today. But I do agree with him. I lost my father to liver cancer ten years ago. My only concern was not comforting him; nurses and my unbelieving family could do that. My concern was making sure he didn't spend eternity in hell.
Right now my nearly perfect wife is battling advanced breast cancer. We are both concerned about precisely the things Mr Piper is; those are, the eternal things. Cancer should not focus our minds on temporal comforts. We spend our lives trying to be more comfortable. Facing eternity is the one time we should stop worrying about making someone comfortable and safe. We are no longer afforded that luxury, there isn't time. What is more useful to a person in eternity; platitudes meant to ease their mind or uncomfortable truths that kept them out of hell?

"Talk about no concept of pastoral care."

"Or at least that's sort of how I would have imagined it to go."

"Well, I'm just glad he won't be at my bedside."

I am surprised no one has commented here on the spirit with which this post was written. I read sarcasm and swagger and a "how dare you" tone of voice, scolding a man who has ministered in the pulpit and at the bedside for over 25 years.

Rhett, I'd like to pose this question to you. As a grad student and college director and therefore a young leader and example to many others younger in the faith, is this the attitude toward older, godly men that you want to send?

Do you think the tone you are taking with John Piper is representative of what Paul meant when he said to Timothy (another young leader), "Do not rebuke an older man but encourage him as you would a father (1 Timothy 5:1)". To take issue with something is one thing. To verbally shake your finger and say "shame on you" in a "let me tell you something about pastoring" tone of voice is quite another.

As far as Piper's points of exhortation, I am going to venture a guess and suggest that you have read/heard very little of John Piper's preaching. This is a man who weeps openly with his people, loving them like a father.

I find you post naive at best and self-righteous at worst. It has, in fact, been the people in my life who have pointed my eyes to the same magnificent promises and exhortations from Scripture (like Piper has in this article) who have ministered to my wife and I most as we have faced our deepest heartaches and fears. I pray that men and women who care like John Piper will sit by me through whatever God has designed for my future.

There are too many Christian hypochondriacs. They try to get attention for themselves through their sicknesses. That's why Jesus asked the man by the pool, "Do you want to get well?" John Piper is offering the same advice Jesus gave to Paul, "My Grace is sufficient for you for my power is made perfect in weakness." God owes us nothing and through weaknesses, makes us realizes that it is only grace that we need...not some kind of good feeling grace when we are suffering, but the grace we received when we were first saved. Because of this perspective, I can be drowning in the depths of the sea and can still praise God 100% for providing for my only need; GRACE.

Most people who have posted to this site are in a way saying that we should tell others that God owes us more than salvation. Isn't salvation enough? Does God owe us physical healing? Absolutely not! He owes us nothing. He didn't even owe us salvation, but he gave it to us anyway. What can be more comforting that to tell someone who is a believer that God "shall supply all your needs according to His riches in glory." If healing is truly a need, then either the Bible lies or healing is not truly a need. Healing is not a need. John Piper is offering the only honest hope for someone who is suffering.

In Christ,

Jim Jordan

I just really think Piper does a really good job of hitting the "law" of the Christian life, and completely missing the "Spirit" of the Christian life.

This really makes me wonder whether you've listened to many of his sermons. Piper is one of the most "pastoral" preachers I've had the pleasure of listening to. Tons are available online. Check 'em out.

This is a toughie. I read John Piper's article in its entirety while my mother was in the hospital suffering from a heart attack, pneumonia, diabetes, etc., etc. Life is full of ironies. God does things that mystify me to no end. My brother, with his wonderful skin, died from melanoma. I, with my horrid skin, have never had any form of skin cancer. I was healed from a mild neuromuscular disease while my far more worthy and godly mother continues to have a more serious case of the same disease.

God doesn't make mistakes. I believe this even when I disagree with how He handles things at times. But what do I know? I cling to the fact that, in Heaven, it will finally all make sense to me.

I like the concept of "not wasting your cancer", even if I may have a different take on some of the steps. God isn't surprised when we suffer, when we are struck with disease. He has His purposes for all that happens to us.

Is it our sin that makes us sick? The disciples posed this same question to Jesus in John 9. No, it isn't necessarily our sin, our parents' sin --- but the purose of suffering, according to this passage, is for the glory of God. Sometimes that means healing, as in that case. But sometimes not.

I have seen God's glory in the sufferings of His saints.

When I suffer, which I haven't done a whole lot of, I tend to pray that God will enable me to quickly learn whatever it is that He wants me to learn. I do not want purposeless suffering. I want something positive to come of it. (I also want to learn the lesson quickly, with the hopes that the suffering will then end just as quickly!)

I hate suffering. I'll admit that I bristle whenever anyone suggests that it is our sin that brings on disease and calamity. I can fully admit that my sin should bring on endless torment, but I simply cannot buy the idea that my mother's chronic health problems are a result of her sin. (If so, I should be far, far more ill than she ever was on her worst day.)

But I've seen glimpses of God's glory. I have seen my mother glorify Him while in the hospital, hooked up to monitors and oxygen, as she ministered to her roommates and shared the good news of the gospel.

She didn't waste her heart attack and pneumonia. Not at all.

May I, with God's grace and strength, do the same when I am called upon to share in the the fellowship of Christ's suffering.

It boils down to this. People can choose to live for the tiny dot which represents their fleeting life on planet earth. Or they can live for the long line of eternity that goes on forever and ever. John Piper has the eternity perspective. Rhett and many others are more concerned about the dot. It's sort of a no-brainer which perspective the God of Eternity has. In the smorgasboard of deep thoughts and wise perspectives floating around out there, I think I'll take God's the way He gave them to us in the Bible. Piper can sit by my death bed any day. Is. 55:8

Rhett,

Thanks for this post. I generally enjoy Piper and am of a Reformed persuasion, but I was listening to a sermon by him on the Christian response to pain this morning and was somewhat put off. Then, in a follow up search, I came across the his article on cancer and was troubled. So even though I am a bit late on the draw, I thought I would just thank you for your response. Also, I just thought I'd add that one can be of Piper's persuasion and still approach suffering in a much more nuanced way. I recently posted some reflections on suffering at my blog that in some way serve as a response that attempts to situate God's sovereignty in broader themes that I think leads to a more balanced approach then the one Piper outlines.

Thanks again,
Rob

Thanks for signing in, . Now you can comment. (sign out)

(If you haven't left a comment here before, you may need to be approved by the site owner before your comment will appear. Until then, it won't appear on the entry. Thanks for waiting.)

URL:
Remember me? YesNo

Comments: